lutherpunk, functionally the intercommunion agreements are mergers as they mean interchangeable clergy (non-episcopal ministers are declared to be the same as priests, an untenable situation for Catholics) but I understand your distinction.

bls, AFAIK neither St Augustine of Hippo nor of Canterbury have left us a written defence of homosex as objectively good. IIRC the former, a prolific writer and church father, had his doubts and neuroses about heterosex! (Individually the church fathers could be wrong.)

Anyway, your sex life and domestic arrangements aren’t my business as a citizen (because they are not a public health hazard) and as I am not your father confessor. Your home is your castle!

The church has the right and duty however to teach its people (membership is ultimately voluntary) that homosex like adultery and fornication is wrong; if one doesn’t agree one is free to go somewhere else, a right that I defend.

I do agree with you that being against homosex should not be the only reason for choosing a church! (A commitment that should be taken as seriously as a marriage.)

And that’s the last thing I’ll write here on the matter.

The bottom line is that we can and will find all manner of things to disagree on–some more vehemently than others. What all of the posters here can agree on is that–going back to the whole “traditionalist-yet welcoming” point–the resurgence of people and priests committed to living out a creedal Christianity in the face of a plurality of other options is a Good Thing. Especially when it is accompanied by good liturgy and works of mercy that proclaim the reality of the resurrection.

P.S., fogey: I’m a woman (ha, ha, ha), and there just ain’t anything in Leviticus or Romans that addresses the topic. (And BTW, Augustine and Clement of Alexandria both agree with me on that score.)

Just to take it in a slightly different direction, I hope I never see anything like a merger. I think the inter-communion agreements have caused me to scratch my head enough.

Add me to your list of people you can’t get along with

Your choice, just like what I meant by ‘it’s a free country’ (I wasn’t claiming to quote you); TEC can merge with the indies if it wants to. Why not?

We’re deadlocked

On that we can agree.

How can you talk to people who apparently believe there’s an abstract thing called “homosexual sex,” detached from individual human beings?

How can you talk to people who apparently believe there’s an abstract thing called ‘murder’ detached from individual human beings?

How can you talk to people who talk about “catholicism” as “universal” - oh, except that there’s one particular group never to be included in the “universalism” of the “catholic” faith?

That’s correct: unrepentant sinners of any orientation exclude themselves.

How can you talk to people who believe with every fiber of their being that “homosexuality is a sin” - yet who can’t point either to Catechism or Scripture to justify this?

Leviticus and Romans. (I know, ‘God hates shrimp’, ha ha ha.)

Orientation is not a sin so in that sense ‘homosexuality is a sin’ is not an accurate description of Catholic teaching. The practice is.

And now you know why I’ve often considered the move to the Independent Catholics…. The Independent Catholics at least recognize they don’t have a Magisterium.

Well, thy will be done, bls. Like I said ‘it’s a free country’. As Voltaire is thought to have said I’ll defend one’s right to be wrong as long as one doesn’t harm others.

The fixation on gay sex as the most important theological issue there ever was or ever will be, and the one true signifier of a person’s theological position is enough to drive anybody mad.

How can you talk to people who apparently believe there’s an abstract thing called “homosexual sex,” detached from individual human beings? How can you talk to people who talk about “catholicsim” as “universal” - oh, except that there’s one particular group never to be included in the “universalism” of the “catholic” faith? How can you talk to people who believe with every fiber of their being that “homosexuality is a sin” - yet who can’t point either to Catechism or Scripture to justify this?

The Independent Catholics at least recognize they don’t have a Magisterium.

There’s nothing more to talk about, then. Add me to your list of people you can’t get along with - except I’m not an “ex-” anything. I wasn’t “angry,” either - until just now, when you decided that because you think you’re right I must perforce be a “liberal.” Ugh.

People are “angry” because we’re being pigeonholed, ignored, dismissed, and misrepresented. For an example, I’ve nowhere said anything about “a free country,” so why are you saying I have? FYI, that sort of thing doesn’t help your argument a bit.

If you really think that gay sex is the ultimate signifier, there’s no point in any further discussion - because I think it’s quite a minor issue. We’re deadlocked, in that case, so let’s just admit it and move on to something more interesting.

In ways Anglicanism is sui generis, things to do with English culture as I said above, but more important to a Catholic is a common faith with the larger Catholic world.

The only other place I could possibly consider going, BTW, is to the Independent Catholic Church, or the Old Catholics. What I hope happens, actually - if TEC gets the boot from the Communion - is for a merger with some of those groups and churches.

Well, I think TEC except the conservative dioceses is essentially asking to be booted but more to your point ‘it’s a free country’; if it wants to merge with the indies then seriously it can go right ahead. I don’t see that happening though. I know that ‘indy’ priests sometimes seek admission as Episcopal priests, in their orders ‘as is’, and are turned down or told ‘you have to go through the process and to a seminary like anybody else’.

And the Anglican Communion is of course in communion with the Old Catholics FWIW so if TEC is booted I don’t see that merger happening.

More likely there will be a COCU-like mainline merger in America.

BTW, there are many in Anglicanism today who proudly describe themselves as belonging to the “largest evangelical denomination in the world.” Food for thought, no?

Makes sense when you consider the entire Communion - the robust minority of English Evangelicals, the Aussie Evos and of course the Global South!

BTW, there are many in Anglicanism today who proudly describe themselves as belonging to the “largest evangelical denomination in the world.” Food for thought, no?)